tv MONEY With Melissa Francis FOX Business November 21, 2013 12:00am-1:01am EST
be influenced one way or the earth. "money" with melissa francis is next. melissa: shocking questions about numbers many have been suspicious of for years. a scathing report claims numbers that have direct impact on your money every day may have been manipulated an investigation is underway and we have the latest developments. even when they say it's not, it is always about money. melissa: new details right now on a stunning report in the "new york post." the paper reporting that data used to create that all-important jobs number we hear about every month was faked. now there is congressional investigation. doug ma kel way has new developments after speaking to
one of the sources cited in the post piece. doug, what were you able to confirm? >> we were finally able to reach the source cited by name in the "new york post" story. his name is julius buckman. a retired census worker. we spoke to him this afternoon. he said the "new york post" story is inaccurate, when i asked him how it was inaccurate, the columnist asked him if he could quote him. buckman said no, i don't want to be quoted. he is quoted anyway. that is what he terms enact ray s in the post piece, buckman said, i'm quoting, told to make up information by higher-up at census. it was a phone conversation. i forget the but go ahead and fabricate it. the white house is dismissing the post claims that census workers deliberately faked unemployment numbers at a time the president was seeking re-election. >> obviously misleading. i think a lot of people shed a lot of credibility engaging in conspiracy theories last fall without rigged jobs numbers. >> meanwhile house republicans are taking these allegations
very seriously. >> for this data came just a mere 30 days or so before a presidential election. republicans every day we were pounding on the fact that obama doesn't work. that unemployment rate couldn't get below 8%. suddenly 30 days best election it did. that begs the question did that really happen? >> yesterday house oversight committee chairman sent a letter to the census bureau demanding all documents including emails related to the population survey. in particular emails to or from buckman. bureau release ad statement saying it quote, takes allegations of fraud by its employees very seriously. it says we carefully cross-check and verify the work of our staff to insure the data's validity. commerce department inspector general who oversees the census bureau told fox news and i'm quoting. we are aware of media reports and our office is evaluating what action might be warranted. important to note that julius buckman retired from the census
bureau in 2011 but the post piece alleges fabrications escalated after his departure. melissa? melissa: doug mckelway, thank you very much. >> you bet. melissa: this is not the first time that the jobs number is questioned. if the "new york post" report proves true there are big implications for your money. with me, art laffer, president reagan's former economic visor and economist peter morici and fox news contributor jonathan hoenig from capitalistpig.com. thanks for all of you joining us. this is causing a huge controversy. i did my own reporting on this i talked to former labor department officials who told me, first of all, they wean surprised by this report. second of all, you know, political appointees can impact the way that the data is corrected by putting pressure on these career folks that go out and collect the data and saying you either have to do it quicker. they can change the rate at which people need to respond when they're calling on the phone. there are a lot of things they
can do that matched up with this article. they didn't think it was so farfetched. art, give you first crack at it. what do you think? >> i hope it is not true and looks like the guy is back off a lot but one thing we need to be able to rely on is integrity of departments and agencies in washington not to be partisan, not democrat or republican and tell the numbers as they are, bls census, you have to get it out of treasury. irs especially, nsa. you want to rely on these not instruments of political retribution or rigging elections and stuff. you know, i personally don't think it is very common if it happened at all but i really hope it is not happening here. melissa: peter, i don't know if it is that they're being political and pushing it one way or the other. i doubt the way the survey is down, the household survey, they pick up a phone and call a house and ask them questions. no one knows if they really connected with that house. you know, a lot of times these are people are contracted. they're under pressure and a deadline to fill in a few boxes. also you know, i had rasmussen
call my office. i had a lot of fun with them with my answers. i don't know the way the survey is done is that scientific. that is my problem. peter, what do you think? >> oh think it is scientific when it is done properly and according to the rules. just like any other poll. it's a matter how you ask the questions and so forth. i think we need to consider this, that if three players engaged in this, had 5,000 questionnaires to get done out of 60,000, it would be possible to swing the unemployment rate by, say, .3 of a percentage point. instead of it going down from 8.1 to 7.8, it might have gone up from 8.1 to 8.3 in final months of elections, that is enormously important. this could have made a difference. melissa: not only that jonathan, peter makes an interesting point, it is done like any poll. this is much more important than any poll.
the number that comes out dictates federal reserve policy. forget the election. the fed is going to decide when to step on or step on the gas based on unemployment numbers. this impacts everybody's money. to be conducted the way a dumb poll is done, i don't like that? >> well the numbers are incredibly important, melissa. literally trillions of dollars, not to mention the election hung on the balance of these very, very important numbers. the possibility there could be some deception, some manipulation, some fraud, makes this a major, major scandal. we have come not to really trust numbers from government. a lot of people, i'm hearing from many on twitter that inflation numbers are suspect. we're really used to federal reserve and bought in general reporting statistics we might not think are true. everyone from jack welch to fbn's eric bolling said a lot of data way back then look ad little fishy, turns out they might have been right.
melissa: speaking of that, see what jack welch had to say. can we say play that. >> i don't know what the right number, but these number don't smell right where you think the economy is right now. this whole number is made up of whole mess of assumptions. who is participating. who is not working. who tried to work but dropped out. all these things. melissa: art, you know, people have to trust the numbers. you said it before. i picked up the phone. i called the house oversight committee that is supposed to keep check on this and ask them what they were going to do about it. they said they were going to launch an investigation. is that enough. >> that's enough i think. let me take this month's numbers coming out. establishment survey increase of employment of 200,000 people. and yet if you get the household survey we had decline in employment of 720,000 people. you know there are all sorts of mistakes and things going on. what i really worry about, and i think other two worry about as he will, is there political manipulation? there is huge amounts of error
in this stuff. these guys are human after all. i'm sure they do shortchanges and quit a little early and make up numbers. bottom line, if it is politically manipulated you've got a real problem. melissa: no, art, it is not okay if they quit early and, doesn't matter what the motivation is. the numbers have to be right because policy is -- >> they try. melissa: peter, help me out there. i don't compare what their motivation is. >> peter, help her. >> well i supervised, i supervised taking of polls as chief economist in the government. melissa: uh-oh. >> we don't make up numbers. melissa: okay. >> however, you can get some bad apples. you get people who are inclined to lean on, influence. i had political appointees call me up and ask me about numbers at times but i just stood my ground. melissa: hmmm. interesting. jonathan, give you the last word because that to me, that was smoking gun. >> that is a smoking gun. melissa: i don't like the sound of that. john that.
>> data has to be important, melissa. places such as argentina they go so far to prosecute private economists who publish inflation data that doesn't exactly jive with what the government thinks it is. to the fact that peter's point, we could have data central to the functioning of our economy being manipulated for political purposes. given the irs scandal, it is not that hard to believe that in fact might have been the case. melissa: we're out of time. i wish we had more. >> thanks, melissa. >> i appreciate your insight. when you thought it couldn't get any worse for obamacare. one of the top health insurers in the country, publicly mocking the program. we'll show you ads. oh, no. marcia blackburn grilled health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius, you remember this, over healthcare.gov debacle. president is blaming republicans, republicans for the website failure. congresswoman blackburn is here to respond. to respond. more "money" coming up.ñ@ç@çpç this is the quicksilver cash back card from capil one.
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place to buy health insurance. just visit well mark.com/simple or call today. melissa: oh snap! iowa's top insurer taking a jab at obamacare as frustrations grow with the healthcare.gov website. wellmark blue cross-blue shield want to remind consumers the state exchanges are not the only choice by the way. here in fox business exclusive wellmark vice president, laura jackson. were you nervous, at all, making fun of the government? look what happened to jamie dimon and other people that come out against them. were you nervous? >> melissa, first of all probably important to explain why we produced the commercials. melissa: okay. >> it certainly wasn't to take a jab at administration or affordable care act. certainly there are many things we're in favor of the affordable care act but we're in iowa and south dakota are in unique situations because we had the opportunity earlier in the year what the president was offering about, extend plan years.
if people were worried about going into 2014 and keeping what they had we were able to offer to all the individual and small group customers. so we're in a little bit different situation. melissa: you're in a situation, laura, but a year from now you'll be in the same boat. will you cancel policies a year from now? >> the question for us we mead to make sure we education our consumers. in all this what we found and why we put the commercials out here our message was getting drowned out. the public exchange is another storefront to sell your product. we wanted to get consumers to pause with a little humor and really understand the store is still open for business. you can still buy health insurance products and keep what you have. melissa: that doesn't answer the other question, a year from now are those policies going to get canceled? >> i, if everything goes forward the way it is planned, we are going to be in the same boat. we hope that we have a chance to educate our consumers more -- melissa: let them know what their options are going to be. >> exactly. >> can see what is happening to
everyone else. we extended this for a year, but, you know, unfortunately the same thing will happen to you in a year. so then, are you telling them at that point that they should stay on your site and they're going to see, you know, what their options are? are there going to be me expensive options at that point? >> i think, two things, our site right now is very education-focused. we have taken the approach since the very beginning that people understood they do have options. if they're still elgible and want to purchase on the exchange that's a better option that's great. even the products that are aca compliant today for effective dates of 1/1/2014, in many cases our plans even with the aca built into those products are less expensive than those offered on the exchange. melissa: less expensive than the exchange. that is interesting. you're not participating in the state exchange now but you will be in 2015, is that right? >> that is correct. we made a very conscious decision after exploring all of our options and understanding what we thought might happen which is our customers would
have a very bumpy ride if we were trying to connect to the exchange in january's 14, made a commitment we would be on the exchange in 2015. we wanted to make sure our customers had a smooth experience. melissa: you're saying products offered on your website are cheaper than what people would find on the exchange. when you have products in both spots how do you anticipate them to be different in both quality and price? >> i think that's a great question. so depending upon how many people actually purchase on the exchange today, we aren't going to have a lot of information upon which to price product that is would go on the exchange in 2015. so i think it will be interesting to make our way through that and understand how the products will compare but the products will be virtually the same. we only put good quality products out in the marketplace, whether in a storefront like the exchanges or website or great broker network that we have. melissa: if they're the same price what is the point of
having a government website? >> i think it is just a different opportunity for people to receive that subsidy. that is really the difference. with what i like to tell people think about the fact that you can buy a product in many different stores but you can use your coupon to buy a product on the exchange. that is really benefit of the exchange as we see it today. melissa: as somebody who operate as website that sells health care, i mean are you surprised at how the obamacare website has not worked? >> i don't know that i can speak to what went into the obamacare website but i will tell you when we do i.t. projects in our company that anything like complexity that we anticipate this was for the administration it takes a few years of planning and a lot of testing and a longer period of testing than with we saw coming down the pipeline which is why we made a very conscious decision to defer participation for a year. melissa: laura jackson, thanks for coming on. my hat is off to you and i like entrepreneurs in america that make lemonade out of lemons.
there was a problem going on. you took advantage and offered solutions. thanks for coming on. >> thanks, melissa. melissa: which is more difficult for an applicant? get hired at walmart or to get accepted into harvard? wait a second, is this a trick question!? here's a hint. it is all about the ratio. you may be surprised by the answer. if you see a coworker cheating the company is it better to report it or keep your mouth shut? are work place ethics set in stone or are they subject to interpretation? we have a money talker panel all set for this one. do you ever have too much money?
outrage after one store held a food drive for its own employees. now more than 23,000 people are competing for only 600 positions at walmart's two new washington, d.c. stores. if the demand is there for these jobs, i'm wondering why the public outcry? lacy crawford author of, early decision. and our very own charles payne. lacy, you got roped into this because you are somebody who looks at college admissions and the yield rate we all call it. so if there are 23,000 people trying to get 600 jobs, that yield rate is 2.6%. 5.7% of people who apply to harvard get into harvard. it is easier to get into harvard than to get one of these jobs at walmart! are you shocked? >> i'm devastated. i think that is very sad actually statistically speaking. if there are that many people, understand the employment rate in that area is higher than it is nationwide.
if that many people are looking for 600 jobs, god, we've got a problem. melissa: that's really something. charles payne, walmart is supposed to be horrible company and terrible place to work. employees have canned food drive for thanksgiving with each other. people are trying to unionize, annual wage for associate is 12.67, almost 13 bucks is terrible not acceptable yet 23,000 people want to work there. >> walmart, to be honest is godsend for this country and a lot of people. it created millions of jobs for americans. secondly allowed people right now batching this show on a flat screen television that otherwise they might not have had. they deliver fresh fruit, vegetables. it is just an amazing company. the idea that they have been demonized to the degree they have been to the point where washington, d.c., we remember not too long ago, the city council said, we don't need you, walmart. melissa: right. they were trying like heck to have them not open the store there they were changing --
>> mayor had to override them. melissa: they wanted to institute a minimum wage specifically for walmart. that would force them to pay more, saying that no one would come in work for this wage. here you go. >> it was specifically for walmart t wasn't just a districtwide raise in minimum wage. melissa: they were grandfathering in, they were, walmart was only one at time that qualified for it. they were grandfathering in companies already there. you had to be over a certain size. soar this only ones getting caught in this net. you think it is fair, the way that walmart is being treated? i -- melissa: go ahead. we welcome your opinion. >> walmart is the biggest private employer in the country is this right? 1.4 million people. melissa: right. >> the conversation has to be less how much walmart is paying, by the way i think there is caveat to the number. average wage walmartsy paying higher than most retailers, only assuming they're getting 40-hour work week. a lot of complaints -- melissa: hourly wage. >> if they're cutting you back an only getting 25 hours a week, you can't earn a living working at walmart.
this is very real problem for a lot of employees i've seen come forward. i do think that needs to be in the mix. melissa: i don't think you're meant to earn a living on hourly jobs or entry level job. that is not idea of entry level job. to get in and move up. i mean i think, a lot of these people that are earning minimum wage are out there doing something else at the time, more than half of them are also students. they have another job. >> they have to be. melissa: they have to be students? >> they have to be doing something. if you said not enough to live on, i'm trying to figure out how they do the math. melissa: charles, if they were not working at walmart? would be 100% on government subsidies? >> first of all, i think this minimum wage push is in part this giant utopia we're trying to create in this country largely a welfare state. the u.s. budget is not large enough to carry the load anymore. defacto they will make corporate america pitch in. but here's what we need. d.c. the top quintile in washington,
d.c., makes like $270,000, top 20%. the bottom make 9,000 a year. you know what? the walmart wage is double that 9,000 a year. you saw how many people showed up for these jobs. it is not the end all to be all but you're also, silicon valley engineer. you know, jobs, it's a free market experience. the idea though that we're going to somehow raise wages artificially at minimum wage level, i'm telling you it create as dangerous, dangerous situation where mediocrity is rewarded and encouraged instead of people, take it to the next level. melissa: lacy last word. you say you can't survive on those wages it is absolutely true. what is the solution to that? is it get more skills to have a better job or raise the wage at walmart so they higher fewer people? >> i will not be social engineering walmart. there is community breakdown where we want to place blame, i don't know. if you can't earn enough working 40 hours honest job a week, 23,000 people want to try and
they can't, we have to find some way to help them do better. >> thanks, guys. great discussion. what would you do if you found out your coworker was stealing from the company or that your boss was having an office affair? hmmm. stay out of it? look the other way? tweet me and tell me what you think. how you react to their behavior says a lot about your ethics. it is today's money talker. "who made money today?" he may have gotten booted from the company but still owns a huge piece and is up big because of it. stay tuned to find out who it is. "piles of money" straight ahead.
21% have high ethical standards lawyers 90%? >> how do you feel about that? >>. [laughter] i was very insulted. 19%? we are one digit% advocating zealously we don't bend the rules ever. melissa: among the unethical business people the conformist he who follows the rules rather than questioning the authority figure. then they try to make up the role as they go along? >> basically the person uses their own ethics. then though regular. >> who would admit to being a wiggler on national tv? >> actually i am more of the navigator.
but truthfully i think we're all negotiators because ethics are likely to issues. melissa: make up the rules as you go along? >> human nature makes it wear for self preservation we do make up rules as we go along. >> but then you would be to id your heads be back by doing something illegal or unethical that is black-and-white. melissa: you are shockingly quiet over there. >> i will put some perspective on this. the gallup poll they found people have a lower opinion of business executives tasks stupid questions they did is just wrong. the story of bloomberg written by a guy. melissa: i am not familiar with the organization. >> but those ethical examples are not at all.
a co-worker drinks on her lunch hour is not your business. [laughter] >> and manager has an affair why is that if anybody is business? ethics in the workplace should be about following the law. >> but if she gets promotions and increased than ethical issues. >> the h.r. department. >> by going around trying to impose their standards on everyone else. i think business people are fundamentally ethical and all of this. melissa: i want to update the score he says it doesn't matter. i don't know.
tony says whatever works best. >> i agree we are all ethical. >> the battle of the sexes and the ladies our ethical but the men are not. >> in the business work place right now we are introducing more and more on personal behavior we have a dog in the fight when you leave the workplace what you do in your own time is up to you. melissa: but if your co-worker is getting promotions. >> then that is a violation. >> if your co-worker comes in strong guy cannot do my job you do with for me? syntex said it is a problem. it is my job to come in and do the best work i cannot to decide this one is not doing the right job maybe i should tell.
>> these are made up categories by a guide to makes a living to make this up. we know how to behave in the workplace and be ethical. >> but not all behavior we agree with is another call now requires the state level of outrage that is like taking somebody's soda when it is label that is not unethical. >> it is dealing. but is taking from a co-worker. >> it is rude but not unethical. >> it is stealing. is there different ethical standard networks and at home? melissa: he says it is not my problem but somewhere else or at home are the standards different because it is more impact will personally? >> 80% of the wait time ethics play a critical role especially with advancement
or salary. >> where ever we are involved is part of the social compact but just not to get outraged every time we perceive someone is doing something we would not do ourselves. there is a level of subjectivity. melissa: you are the negotiator months in a fair way to pious. >> pointed the finger at the republicans marshall blackburn has been critical of the affordable care act does that mean she tries to undermine belloc? at the end of the day it is all about money.
front of her as she tries to show how easy it is to use. back on the ranch the president meets with people back on cancel plans right after he believes republicans for his health care rollout disaster. with me now is marcia blackburn. thank you for joining us. what happened with kathleen sebelius. they tried to do a demonstration and it was very similar to what happened when she was questioned in front of you a and you put up the web site once again it crashed. are you surprised if this is still going on? >> i am not surprised at all. it is so terribly disappointing but bear in mind they brought out a product that was half cooked but you have 40 percent of the web site yet to be built this is indicative of greater problems of the policy and the entire program that will manifest
itself. melissa: without question the president seems to be blaming you and other republicans i will play that sound bite for you. >> with the problems we have had one side of capitol hill has billy really have to read market a and three brandy and that will be challenging in this political environment. melissa: i you invested in failure? >> i would submit for his consideration the fact very apparently, obviously his team was invested in failure because as you know, , you either fail to plan or you plan to fail. they did not do the planning necessary to be successful there for they must not have cared if this was successful or not. we are the ones that have
consistently said we need to bring reforms to health care delivery and the marketplace. we continue to encourage fair and equitable tax treatment the list goes on and on i would submit if he is invested in failure he should look at hhs. melissa: he talks about free marketing and reprinting the product. >> how disrespectful of the american people they clear the said we did not want this program we do not want this approach to health care with a with the federal government making these decisions and the president is not engaged to the level that he understands it is
not a branding problem or a marketing problem it is philosophical. the people do not want the federal government to be in charge, options or choices or in char of the access to health insurance for it is a very dangerous thing to start giving incentivize use to not let individuals see a position to deliver the care desperately needed. melissa: the president tried to fix the broken promise to say we will let you keep it for another year a lot of commissioner said that is not possible. in response the president brought the commissioners to the white house was that a bride bore brow beating or meeting of the minds? >> i don't know.
our state insurance commissioner work very closely to make sure the of marketplace is solvent and stable and you will see a continuity of product. this takes time with actuarial work and i now each state wants to make certain they are a fair place to do business that they are solvent they don't want problems on their hands. changing the rules trying to force them to do things that they cannot accommodate is very difficult. some can make the changes and others cannot. melissa: to can see people in favor to say we are where we are a and democrats cannot win for losing because of president tried
to respond what is the most productive thing to do right now? what is the best for the short-term? >> it is a suspension everything related to the health care law. it clearly is not working well be the opportunity to do is to pull down some of these provisions that are not working. and where the problems are every day brings a new set of problems that have arisen either with saw health care marketplace and the web site or with the insurance issues or the loss of policies or a loss of access the problems the hospital see with physicians or care providers so what this is is a
systemic shock to our health care system. is 1/6 of their nation's economy it is time for a suspension and get in here to clean this up i have to tell you i think clean-up will take months it is already very expensive. melissa: they give for spending time with us. making a decent living on the streets it is a better alternative than government aid he hits the streets to try. coming up next
he collected $8. better than minimum wage. think you. i wanted to see how much money i could make. melissa: if you could not tell that was john stossel. i recognize the voice you took to the streets to see how much "spare change" he could get posing as up panhandler i did not recognize you they did a good job but i feel that people with no your voice anywhere. but one of the most interesting things that you came up with? we will look at clap number one. >> they gave me money when my signs of homeless or cold even when i changed it to need a beer. >> thank you. melissa: need a beer was
successful? which was the most successful? >> it was not a scientific test site just tried it i got it at about the same rate with each signed. maybe people don't read this line or they just want to give to someone sitting there. just illustrates what the homeless services people say almost all are not necessarily it need those looking to get money for alcohol and you are not doing them a favor. their plight there are better ways don't give to people like. melissa: you are so cynical. is it easier than you thought? >> it was more the a minimum-wage. maybe eight hours a day full
time? not that it is an easy way to make a living but we have followed the bakers home and do the but their parents or to have holmes. those that say work for food we offer jobs and theydon't it is a scam. melissa: somebody offered you a job? >> this man gave me some changes and a job offer. >> i need somebody to hand out flyers if you are around i will see you tomorrow. melissa: don't you feel bad? he was trying to be nice. did you really tell him? >> we explained later and he was with a homeless charity that is a way to approach people. melissa: look at some reactions from people that gave money. >> i am pretty told myself.
>> he looked pretty needy. melissa: what does that tell you? people our nice and charitable and you make fun of them i don't know if i like this. >> deal with it. i just try to do what is a television illustration you should not give to baker is in the street. melissa: why? because you enable the drug habit and there are better ways to help them. >> a lot of people have been critical the way billionaires' we try to have that conversation with ted turner. >> my wrong to think i am happy if bill gates gives nothing? >> would you be happier if he did? [laughter] >> he did not like your
argument spee mckee had just given $10 million to the win or maybe more but the largest that then a time but the of un squanders money could did more for the world mother teresa or michael milken? you may have gone to jail and broken laws but he invented john bonds -- junk bonds the teresa helped people but michael milken did more. melissa: so they should reinvest their money in higher rather than giving them to visa u.n.? the on tv we are useless. >> speak for yourself. >> they should stick to what they do. bill gates has given more than most. melissa: and interesting
look at charity. be sure to catch more tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m. eastern. war on his take. up next who made money today? his performance as a giant failed but capturing on the turnaround right after this. you can never have too much we went out and asked people a simple question: how old is the oldest person you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪
officials say aircraft maintenance crews found the cache of 24 gold bars during a routine check on the commercial jet. the bars with 53 pounds. worth 1.2 million dollars they were founded a compartment in the bathroom. is about ready keeps their goals? the unknown owner of the unclaimed florida lottery ticket who ever hit the powerball jackpot back in may still has not come forward they only have until tomorrow before the wedding goes back. officials say this to be the biggest unclaimed jackpot in florida since 2003. i hope you made money today.
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